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Dot Spoiler; Major Spoiler ❗
Topic Started: 10 Jan 2015, 22:29 (16,326 Views)
MrJames
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Cam
12 Jan 2015, 02:23
But no one batted an eyelid when Newman and Kirkwood were in charge and everyone was complaining about them. If someone doesn't like DTC's vision of the show, they should be allowed to say so, just like with Newman and Kirkwood.

It's Louise Berridge (I think?) I feel sorry for, she had a stalker who terrorised her for months. Nothing like that has happened with DTC.

I don't think anyone solely blames the producer, but he has the overall say on what makes it onto the show and what doesn't.
There's nothing wrong with speaking generally though:

"This is a terrible idea because..."
"The show is diabolical at the moment because..."
"The show is amazing at the moment because..."
"This is a fantastic idea because..."

It's easier, it's nicer, it's fairer. Even something like "DTC's era..." really makes all the difference. Pinning it all one man, or one woman for that matter, just makes my stomach flip a little bit. I know I couldn't handle everyone pinning that on me, no matter how aware of the pressures of the job I had to be. Again, I'm not antagonizing, I'm just expressing some of my long-standing thoughts.
Edited by MrJames, 12 Jan 2015, 02:38.
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Mr Branning
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I think DTC acts as the face of the show and this is clearly his vision, plus he's far more vocal than many previous producers have been. He promotes the show on Twitter, through interviews and in press events so, whilst he can easily be praised when people like what's going on, it's also easy to blame him for everything.

But this isn't DTC sitting in an office dictating storylines which everyone just follows. He's got a massive team behind him, all of whom contribute to the show whether it's good or bad.

I also don't get the flack he gets for Santer's era. So DTC is to blame for what went wrong then and is also solely to blame for what is happening now? I've said it before but I truly believe Santer's vision of the show was very different to DTC's.

We're never going to have a producer we all love and EastEnders is never going to be the show it was in the 80s (because it's 2015, that would be silly). But what I think sets DTC apart from the last two producers is that I feel like it's being produced by a fan. If he wasn't producing EastEnders, he'd be on this forum arguing about the bizarre oddicies that only we pick upon. He loves this programme as much as we do and whilst his vision isn't to everyone's tastes, I can't ask for much more than for the programme to be in the hands of a devoted fan who's also not too bad at telling a half-decent story.
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Sey
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The buck stops at DTC so it is only right he receives the blame for his poor decisions whether they originally came from him or not. I only ever blamed him for Santer era mistakes when we knew they were his ideas, but I equally blamed Santer for signing off on them.

So far I haven't seen anything personal, no-one is insulting the guy on a personal basis, just his crap decisions and bad habits.
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Jade
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The buck always stops with EP. I don't see a problem criticising his work or dissecting what he said in interviews and then he is doing what he said he wouldn't. Like the Greatest Hits comments.

How is that any different to the love and warmth comments made about Newman? Which I know was made by most of us including those who think we cant criticise DTCs comments. I am not saying he is a bad man. I don't see any of us saying that. We are critical of his choices in that role of EP and sometimes uses quotes to back it up. I saw a lot worse and very personal comments made about Newman by some people on here. Newman and to a lesser extend Kirkwood it was personal and then people who really did get a hard time like Berridge who had someone stalking her. I haven't seen anything like that on here. For some reason I recall some very nasty things said about Newman and people were laughing as a response (this was a couple of years ago now). I remember even saying at the time I didn't like her choices but the comments made me uncomfortable.

And of course being EP is a stressful job. Why most of us including myself couldn't do it. Why he gets a good wage and makes the choices. But I am not an actor doesn't mean I can not be critical on someones acting skills or a professional musician and not have different prefences.

If anyone is insulting DTC personally I would agree. If someone said he was "ugly" I would totally agree, remember back in the day someone referring to Newman as fat. But his choices or interviews where he said certain things would happen and they didn't as far as I am concerned are fair game. If he makes a bad choice, use one of his quotes to be critical I am just as happy as I was to call out Newman and her love and warmth. Which is exactly the same thing. I don't remember anyone saying we shouldn't refer to Newman and her comment saying that? If we are insulting him as a person that's one thing but his skills as a EP are just like anyone else up for debate how good he is at his job. Just as we did on Tony Discipline as an actor.

But the buck always stops with the EP because for one thing he signs it all off. Nobody else can claim that. Like a ship sinks the Captain is last off the ship as it stops with him regardless of whose fault it was that the ship is sinking. So just like Newman, Kirkwood etc he is responsible for the failures and the successes as much as any other EP past and present. And it is down to him every episode we have seen he has signed off.
Edited by Jade, 12 Jan 2015, 07:00.
Your approval is neither desired nor required.

Julia Smith "We decided to go for a realistic, fairly outspoken type of drama which could encompass stories about homosexuality, rape, unemployment, racial prejudice, etc., in a believable context. Above all, we wanted realism".

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Mrs Peel
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See You Slater
12 Jan 2015, 00:32
Mrs Peel
12 Jan 2015, 00:27

Quoting limited to 2 levels deep
DTC won't send Ronnie to prison. He loves Sam Womack to much. He was fawning over her casting back in 2007 and judging by the many breaks she's had since 2013 he still fawns over her now.

Expect the lines 'tragic heroine', 'suffered enough already' and 'this is EastEnders, not everyone gets punished' to be wheeled out in interviews with DTC in coming months.
Ronnie has killed a man in cold blood. She needs to get the same sort of karma that another very popular character, Dennis Rickman, got. It doesn't matter how much the EP loves the character - he loved Stacey as well, but viewers recognised that it couldn't be allowed for her to get away with murder, and that was rectified.

When a character kills, they pay - otherwise they risk becoming pantomime, as Nick did.
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Mrs Peel
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The Other Slater Cousin
12 Jan 2015, 01:46
I'd hate Dots leaving line to be something so extreme. Dot, and June, deserve something fitting to the character. Dot getting ill and in her last days finally realising that despite her loneliness she has felt for all these years, she has a family around her who love her, from Charlie to Sharon to Ian. Dot doesn't have affairs or have cat fights in the Square, she is an old woman who has scrambled through life with her faith as her only constant. That should be reflected in her finale.
This ... and articulated so well.
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Mrs Peel
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MrJames
12 Jan 2015, 01:53
I do wonder if there will ever come a time that some of these DTC comments don't make me feel uncomfortable. Just how often do we hear people say "I love DTC, he is so amazing, he's getting everything right! He's perfect, I love him, he's the answer's to all of EastEnders' prayers!"?

Hardly ever. I can count maybe on one hand the occasions where I've heard someone actively personally praise him in that manner. Or maybe there are many more that I'm simply not thinking of, there probably will be, but it definitely doesn't feel as active or as 'extreme' as some of the criticism does. And that's not because people don't think he's doing a good job because clearly they do, but praising him personally just isn't the done thing unless there are special circumstances where it is relevant.

So we do why do we so freely and personally criticize DTC in these ways? I criticize and praise EastEnders, the show. You will never ever see me criticizing or praising DTC, the man. Ever. Is it because I'm an English Literature student and I have it instilled in me to dismiss and forget about the author as soon as I pick up a book? Probably. But anyway, it makes me uncomfortable. Perhaps that's just me.
The buck stops at DTC. Just as in literature, the buck stops with the author. Just ask Salman Rushdie. DTC has the ideas and directs the storyliners. When a storyline/character tanks, it's ultimately his fault.

The man's turned the show around, but has he made mistakes? Yes, he's dropped some clangers, and some of his plans clearly aren't working the way he intended.

He's improved the show, and yes, he does understand the history and ethos of the show, but I think that, at times, he's trying to please all of the people all of the time, and that's an impossibility. That's when he comes unstuck.
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Mrs Peel
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The Other Slater Cousin
12 Jan 2015, 02:33
I think there is a clear difference though.

A lot of people complain about "Kirkwood" or "Newman" not as individuals, but as a representation of the era. To me, I understand that. It was a bad time overall for the show, and it's an easy reference point.

There's the flip side to this though, which I have been guilty of in the past. There's the "DTC and his bad habits", "Thought he wasn't doing Greatest Hits? He lied" etc. Thats a lot more personal. Also unnecessary most of the time, whoever it's about.

Also, I criticise the show whenever I feel it's not doing something well. But I separate that from DTC as an individual.
All producers tell porky pies. Just look at Newman and what she promised - the emphasis on Sharon (not), the "new family" (not, unless we were snookered by the Hartmans), and other things. Kirkwood promised big things for Chryed, and nothing happened.

It's not rocket science that many viewers recognised some of the stuff pushed by DTC as a rehash of the show's greatest hits - for Mick and Shirley read Zoe and Kat, anyone?
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Mrs Peel
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Sey
12 Jan 2015, 03:29
The buck stops at DTC so it is only right he receives the blame for his poor decisions whether they originally came from him or not. I only ever blamed him for Santer era mistakes when we knew they were his ideas, but I equally blamed Santer for signing off on them.

So far I haven't seen anything personal, no-one is insulting the guy on a personal basis, just his crap decisions and bad habits.
True. Even when the ideas eventually promoted in storylines aren't his ideas, he signs off on them.
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Gaz
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MrJames
12 Jan 2015, 01:53
You will never ever see me criticizing or praising DTC, the man. Ever. Is it because I'm an English Literature student and I have it instilled in me to dismiss and forget about the author as soon as I pick up a book? Probably.
How does that work? I read a book by eg Dickens (not that I've read many) differently to a book by eg Douglas Adams - different styles of writing, product of different times etc.

Not arguing, just curious.
Happy Christmas Ange.




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MrJames
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Gaz
12 Jan 2015, 11:48
MrJames
12 Jan 2015, 01:53
You will never ever see me criticizing or praising DTC, the man. Ever. Is it because I'm an English Literature student and I have it instilled in me to dismiss and forget about the author as soon as I pick up a book? Probably.
How does that work? I read a book by eg Dickens (not that I've read many) differently to a book by eg Douglas Adams - different styles of writing, product of different times etc.

Not arguing, just curious.
It is incredibly difficult to explain and something that even I have to revise if I'm going to use it in an essay. In the examples that you've given there, I would always focus on the texts themselves rather than the authors. The texts have 'different styles of writing, product of different times' - not the authors.

Roland Barthes 'The Death of the Author' is the biggest, most influential text http://www.tbook.constantvzw.org/wp-content/death_authorbarthes.pdf

But one of Barthes most accessible quotes, I think, comes from his Textual Analysis of one of Edgar Allan Poe's texts:
'I ought to add, frankly, this: analyzing the signifying of a text, we voluntarily abstain from treating certain problems. One will not speak of the author, Edgar Poe, nor of the literary history of which he forms part. One will take no account of the fact that the labor will be carried out on a translation. We shall take the text such as it is, such as we read it, without worrying ourselves to know if it belongs to English rather than to French or philosophy. That does not necessarily mean that these problems will not come up in our analysis. On the contrary, they will come up in the proper sense of the term: analysis is a crossing over the text; these problems can be pointed out under the heading of cultural citations that set out from a code, not from fixed meanings.'

So if we were using it to think about DTC and EastEnders - DTC is just one small drop in the Ocean of the different 'cultural citations' that go in to our response as a viewer. He has absolutely no ruling authority whatsoever, he's just a passing problem similar to any of the other passing problems that we may encounter in relation to 'EastEnders'.

However, if we were to quote some of his interviews, then that constitutes as a text - so that's completely fine. I've harked back on some of the things that DTC has said because it is useful when discussing certain aspects of the show. What isn't useful, in my opinion, is making sweeping statements either in the positive or the negative based on information that we don't have. I respond to EastEnders and the episodes that we sit down and watch four nights a week, because that is all I have access to. I don't respond to DTC unless I have the means to.

Anyway, sorry for English lesson. As you were.
Edited by MrJames, 12 Jan 2015, 16:36.
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Katie
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That's interesting as I've never been told that. Don't you have to write about a text in relation to the historical context which includes the life of the author?
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See You Slater
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I think there are some things that DTC can be blamed for personally as he is the one who signs off on everything. It's the same principal as if a business is failing the blame lies with the boss as well as the workforce.
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MrJames
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Katie
12 Jan 2015, 16:59
That's interesting as I've never been told that. Don't you have to write about a text in relation to the historical context which includes the life of the author?
Historical context in its own right is a bit of a separate issue - things like Cold War in relation to Nineteen Eighty-Four or the French Revolution in relation to Wordsworth's 'Prelude: Book Tenth' are kind of essential. I'd lose marks in some essays if I didn't address those kinds of things.

Context in terms of an author's life is always a bit of a trickier game to play. By all means address it as a way of evidencing the inspiration behind a particular text - so for example Daphne Du Maurier's seclusion from her husband and lesbian desires directly affected the writing of her novel Rebecca - but then you have to articulate the fact this is merely a cultural piece of information and has no actual bearing over the understanding of the text itself - Rebecca is about Rebecca, the dead woman, told through the eyes of the second Mrs De Winters; not Daphne Du Maurier.[/i]

I could not be more sorry for my English degree taking over this thread. Total accident.
Edited by MrJames, 12 Jan 2015, 17:57.
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Mrs Peel
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See You Slater
12 Jan 2015, 17:03
I think there are some things that DTC can be blamed for personally as he is the one who signs off on everything. It's the same principal as if a business is failing the blame lies with the boss as well as the workforce.
Quite right. DTC said himself, in relation to the Lucy storyline that it would either work, or he'd be looking for another job.
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Shamelessness
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Mrs Peel
12 Jan 2015, 00:37
Shamelessness
11 Jan 2015, 02:04
1. Why are they killing off another original character?
2. Why another murder so soon?
3. Why make yet another character a killer?
4. Why involve Dot in that way?
Thank you.

You articulated it far better than I ever could.
I was so drunk.
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Eastend boy
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Always give credit when it is due if this is a 100% given, well done DTC perfect ending for the shows greatest, original villain and great timing as well 30 years on from Reg Cox.
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See You Slater
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Eastend boy
12 Jan 2015, 20:47
Always give credit when it is due if this is a 100% given, well done DTC perfect ending for the shows greatest, original villain and great timing as well 30 years on from Reg Cox.
Nick Cotton is a lot of things, the shows greatest villain he ain't!
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Eastend boy
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See You Slater
12 Jan 2015, 20:49
Eastend boy
12 Jan 2015, 20:47
Always give credit when it is due if this is a 100% given, well done DTC perfect ending for the shows greatest, original villain and great timing as well 30 years on from Reg Cox.
Nick Cotton is a lot of things, the shows greatest villain he ain't!
Who is if he isn't, okay he is a very camp pantomime villain but for consistency over the last 30 years and an out villian who has shown very little humanity or redeemable traits Nick Cotton reigns.
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MrJames
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Dorothy will not work alone. http://www.soapsquawk.co.uk/news/eastenders-spoiler-dot-branning-to-have-a-killer-accomplice.php#results
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